Dragonplace Discussion [Archive]

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JCP

02-21-2005, 12:33 AM

Please comment on the dragonplace mod here.

(The one where the dragon is not in four places at once, and you must look for it but don't have enough searches to look everywhere each day.)

I thought about trying to answer as many comments as I could before anyone commented, but instead will let this thread gather posts for a few days before I comment at all.

So there won't be any feedback from me for a few days. I'll try to be as comprehensive as I can when I do comment.

I do ask that all comments be civil and respectful.

muad

02-21-2005, 12:44 AM

::hides as he types::

i like the mod. it was getting kinda predictable for dk's and somewhat boring. having to look for the dragon adds another chance for the RNG to mess me up and i have no issue with chance. some folks don't mind getting to <dragon slaying level> and going to find it and doing it. after a few dk's (20 in my case) the thrill of the hunt is present and the game has been refreshed for me. ::thinks to himself that McD and Booger must have really grown tired of that routine:: so it adds a few game days to my player. my hat will be larger or i will place more bounties or buy more gifts or drink. who know maybe i will find some gems during those days and be able to so something with them.

i like it and vote to keep it.

::still hiding, ducks even further into cyberspace::

Syrius

02-21-2005, 01:00 AM

Hm, well, I like it too. It took longer to get the dragon, but I got her.
It's nice and different, I think, now I am a Dragon Hunter and not just a killer!

Yay and thank you coders.

::ducks and hides behind muad::

Jelly

02-21-2005, 01:23 AM

Ok so when the idea of the wandering dragon first came up I was absolutely against it. My fears were confirmed when I went 5 days without finding the dragon. However I decided that I would give it some serious consideration before I totally wrote it off. And in the tradition of logical thinking from way back I constructed a pro and con list.

So here are my thoughts,
Pro:
- It does add an interesting aspect to hunting the dragon.
- It makes the sense of achievement greater.
- In general the statues last longer as there are fewer successful people all at once.

Con:
- It negates racing to try to beat your friends and yourself to get faster DK’s as it become purely a luck thing if you have similar leveling speed but just can’t find the dragon for longer. This is a big part of the fun aspect for me so the wandering dragon is making the game not as fun.
- It is frustrating, which also means it is not fun. For me I use this game as a good way to relax after work, so I don’t really want too much frustration.
- In a way it makes you look a bit useless. I say this because I know that several players are opting to suicide so they can have another crack at finding her. But then you have a whole lot of death messages in your bio which just makes it look like you are really bad at staying alive.
- It is a little bit demeaning as well when you are hunted down by the dragon and dragged to her cave. I would prefer to run in heroically, swords blazing than sit around waiting for her to find me.

Ok so there you have it. By my calculations this equates to
Pro = 3 arguments, Con = 4 arguments.
My final estimation then is that I don’t like it and I would like it changed back or modified in some way. That said, in the end it was a pretty close run thing so I am sure I can deal with whatever is finally decided.

Sorry that was so long, but there, I have had my say.

Nightwind

02-21-2005, 01:46 AM

i liked it from the start

some things need modification...

like ... travel dragon ambush...

but it didn't slow me down, because i thought it through

God Valxirion

02-21-2005, 02:09 AM

I partly like it, it's good that there aren't four dragons but just one, but why you may only search 2 times a day?
why not just 4 times? or 3 times?

Vode Andreas

02-21-2005, 03:22 AM

I sorta like it, it does break up the monotony a bit... and my hat got a chance to grow for the first time in AGES :D

Valxirion: If you had four searches that would sort of defeat the purpose of the mod now wouldn't it :wink:

Atrus

02-21-2005, 03:59 AM

The dragon is the Holy Grail, the target we all aim for.The aim of the game is to kill the thing.Moving it, IMO, is a bad thing, as it is making it harder..I have seen some players take eight days to find...for a God or player in the 10-20 DK range they can spend just as long looking for it as they did levelling up.

The HOF is the main thing that keeps the Gods going, the chance to push the limits and race your friends, to be in the top ten percent.

Losing that because you just can't find it is frustrating....and demoralising.

My other concern (and yes I have raised this) is that this mod, if it stays, must not affect players with less than 5 DK's....the frustration and anger of a farmie on their first DK and not being able to move into the next level can only be imagined...we may lose players this way...and that is a bad thing in my book.

We have Wen to try and help new players get used to the game and its mechanics..but to a farmie, whats all the use of training to kill the dragon if at the end you cant find it.Limit dragonplace to Legionnaire and above, in the interests of at least giving new players a leg up and the pride of having slain the dragon at least once before this kicks in.

I personally don't like it...but think that it is a good module, but needs tweaking.The fact that on two occasions players have mentioned that certain other modules that should or could have kicked in after a certain number of days didn't is another concern to me.

Leave it if you wish...but leaven it by ensuring that the percentages for other modules to kick in be reviewed to give a player who has not made a DK in over four days a fighting chance of not sitting there for another four searching fruitlessly.

A random extra search, a few extra dragon attacks..the module needs tweaking. I will close by passing on an upset YOM from a player, and ask that what I have said be seriously considered (no, not you Syrius:p)

"The game is called Legend of the Green Dragon...not "Where is the Green Dragon""?

Thank you for listening.

Edit- My first instinct was that it needed to be removed, as I didn't see the whole picture, and needed to think on it.My opinion now is that it is a good module, and will provide a challenge...my main concerns are as as above..in all honesty, my opinion is that it should not be allowed to add more than five days after reaching level 15.

Central is Beta yes, it is also the official server and we have a thriving community.Having players leave out of frustration means (to me anyway) that the module needs modification.

My vote is keep it, pending possible changes.

Nocturnus

02-21-2005, 04:20 AM

OK, I'm going to stick my nose in here despite not actually being anywhere near close to needing to worry about it.

I have 13 Dragon Kills. All of them flawless.

In most games, the "boss" tends to be difficult to beat, until you know the strategy. I just happened to get lucky on my first attempt. In order for me to maintain my "fdk +1" record (as I tend to comment in my clan hall), not having a "one click and off you go" option means I need new strategies. I'm not even close yet to even having to worry about these new strategies, so I have no idea what it will entail.

I think some kind of help for lower level players is an essential thing - Farmies cop it rough enough as it is from those who had <x> easier dks. In this sense, I agree with Atrus' suggestion, though am a little unsure on actual implimentation - I'd rather see something similar to is there for all players, but "balanced" for the farmies - maybe a altered chance of finding the dragon each time, guaranteed on the second attempt for farmies, 50% for all others until 3 DKs.

I have seen suggestions that there be hints left around the place - inns perhaps, or forest special only activating (but not that frequent, and limited to one per day) when it's time (such as the "pay <x> person a gem for something - the something being a hint that the dragon is not <wherever>).

The one downside I see is that anyone who wants a "DK time record" now has an extra obsticle, compared with "before". I can see how this would upset some people, but have no real suggestions other than invoking the "beta server" clause and telling them to deal with it. ;)

Otherwise, there's little I can add without looking at the code to confirm a few things that may or may not be considered secrets, and I have no great desire to, anyway.

Schattenjager

02-21-2005, 06:58 AM

I personally dislike this new mod with a passion. I have been playing for quite a while, and have thoroughly enjoyed my playing. I've donated funds to make the game more appealing to my tastes, (ie, colors, titles, etc), however it seems that now I'm not getting what I had expected. I don't want a code that makes my accension to God Hood take longer than it already has. Nothing is more dis-heartening that looking for a dragon that isn't there. Considering my main connection point is dial up, It takes a considerable amount of time just to reach level 15, when I get to level 15 I want Seek the dragon and go about my business as the next highest title, not get discouraged.

I hope you will change the dragon back to the normal setting, 4 dragons, one in each cave.

Thanks,

Schattenjaeger

Acemaster

02-21-2005, 09:07 AM

Pwyll

02-21-2005, 09:21 AM

I believe

Pwyll

02-21-2005, 09:22 AM

I agree with all of Atrus's eloquently expressed negative statements. Atrus, with all the reasons you listed as to why this is a bad module, I'm a bit mystified as to why you then conclude that it's a good module. Pick a side, my friend, don't try to play it safe by appeasing both.

That said, here is what I think:

1. It's been said that this change makes the game "more challenging". It really doesn't. What it does is makes killing the dragon a game of chance rather than skill. If a greater challenge is the desired result, the dragon should be made harder to kill, not harder to find. The current situation is not so much challenging as it is frustrating.

2. It's been said that this change makes the game "more realistic" since there is, after all, only one dragon and it can't be in four villages at once. This argument fails when put into the overall game context: Presumably there is only one Garden and one Clan hall for each clan, yet you can get to the Gardens from all villages and you can get to your Clan Halls from all villages. Why shouldn't you be able to get to the Dragon's cave from all villages?

3. One might expect a change as major as this to be part of the elusive goal of "balancing the game". It is not. Making the Dragon harder to find is especially bad for low-DK players who have already been at the quest for a month or more, only to find that getting to the Dragon is now a glorified game of Three Card Monty. Meanwhile, higher-DK players with buffs that give them extra travel will be able to do things that effectively give them an extra Dragon search (I'm being vague here so as not to reveal game secrets).

4. Some have spoken of the "race" to kill the dragon as a bad thing. I think that race for DKs is a major part of the fun of the game, and this feature takes much of that fun away.

5. Ultimately the commotion will die down and people will deal with whatever is decided by the powers that be, but I request that my original poll about this feature be unlocked, and I suggest that the results of that poll be given a lot of weight. All you've done in this poll is ask how much longer a player's hunt for the dragon is, not whether they like it or not.

6. To state my feelings clearly and concisely: I really hate this feature and I hope that it will be removed!

Nightwind

02-21-2005, 11:26 AM

I2. It's been said that this change makes the game "more realistic" since there is, after all, only one dragon and it can't be in four villages at once. This argument fails when put into the overall game context: Presumably there is only one Garden and one Clan hall for each clan, yet you can get to the Gardens from all villages and you can get to your Clan Halls from all villages. Why shouldn't you be able to get to the Dragon's cave from all villages?

I see one request for gardens to be centraltown only...

can i get a seccond on the requested limitation?

ggeezz

02-21-2005, 01:31 PM

I'm chiming in with another vote against the mod "in it's present form," but add these thoughts to the discussion along with agreeing with Atrus' statements.

First off, I am not against the dragon being harder to kill. But the mod doesn't make the dragon harder to kill, it just makes it (on average) take longer to find the dragon. And finding the dragon is now almost completely based on luck, and not whatever else you've done in the game.

I think one of the reasons (besides Atrus' comments) this change has been frustrating to some people is this: There's not much for you to do if you don't find the dragon once you reach level 15 (at least not much that we are defining as "progress" in the game). We can suicide and try again, but I don't find this very fulfilling.

In other words I would like a mod better that either adds obstacles (besides awaiting a new day) to finding the dragon or takes away buffs when fighting the dragon. Here are some suggestions: No mounts when fighting the dragon (your mount is too scared/won't fit to enter the cave), the dragon is a higher level or has buffs, there are (a random number of?) monsters to fight on the way to get to the dragon, or if you have to search, being able to search until you find her (wouldn't that be more realistic if you have 20 FF's and free travel left).

Whatever happens with this mod I want to say that I still love the game, I still appreciate all of the staff's hard work on the game, and I will still enjoy playing with the great community this game has.

Thanks guys!!

Hostillius

02-21-2005, 01:55 PM

I also think that the dragon should be made harder to kill, not harder to find. One of the big things that keeps me playing aggressively is improving my "Best Days" stat. I have 36 DKs already. I am not as pleased by the next DK as I am with the speed at which I can successfully manage to level up and get that DK. It would be nice if the dragon had a chance to actually threaten me if I have no active buffs, though.

Sophen

02-21-2005, 02:55 PM

As I said in another forum here (which is now deleted, thank you) I hate games which final bases on random. Make it harder to kill the dragon! I never had any problems to kill the dragon, its harder to survive level1 than the dragon.
And as I suggested, make it more easy to kill him the more experience you get. So every player can decide, when he thinks he could kill a dragon. And when he loses his battle, he loses lots of exp and perhaps level 15

Pwyll

02-21-2005, 03:10 PM

I see one request for gardens to be centraltown only...

can i get a seccond on the requested limitation?

Nightwind, stop being a <snip>.

That was hardly civil. That applies to both of you.-jcp

jarek

02-21-2005, 03:19 PM

As I’ve understood the motivation for introducing it was to make the game more challenging. Don’t get me wrong, I love a challenge, but only if my actions affect the outcome. When it is completely random whether I get to face the dragon or not, and it is the same day after day, it isn’t really a challenge. It’s just an annoying obstacle which you can’t do anything about except trying to kill yourself and get resurrected. It may sound easy to suicide and resurrect, but it isn’t. It requires a great deal of luck to do so, and I know plenty of people who have failed to do this many times over since the introduction of the new module.

I fail to see that this makes the game more challenging. I feel that when you reach level 15 the real challenge in the game is over. You’ve got all the experience you need, so you can loose as much as you want. You’ve probably also got the weapon and armor that you need, so you can spend all the money on less important stuff (like bounties and your hat). At least this is how I experience the game. This means that playing the game when you are level 15 is as easy as it gets. So if you don’t get the face the dragon you can do almost whatever you want, as it won’t affect your progress in any way. So where is the challenge? The players who fail to locate the dragon are idling around for days without any challenge at all, just getting out their frustration on innocent players while waiting for the dragon to become available.

After defeating the dragon many times over my only real motivation for continuing the game is to do it faster and faster. With the new policy I’m most certainly going to experience that the placement of the dragon will ruin many speedy DKs. This will decrease my motivation for playing the game as the only real challenge (speed) is hindered by an event that has nothing to do with how well or bad I played the game. I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way.

In my opinion the biggest side effect of the new policy isn’t increased challenge, but increased frustration and anger. The many frustrated players on the message boards in the game the last week are clearly showing this. One of the questions from the Gazebo in the gardens is something like “You may try to annoy others”, and the answer is of course “false”. It’s sad, because this is exactly what the new policy does. It annoys many of us, again and again, each time we can’t face the dragon because the random-generator doesn’t give us right outcome.

To sum up: In my opinion the new policy isn’t good for the game. I would rather have the dragon harder to kill than harder to find, like others also are suggesting here. Currently I have 30 DKs, and I’ve lost against the dragon one, maybe two times. This is where the game should be more challenging.

Jarek

Deimos

02-21-2005, 03:32 PM

Harder dragon, huh?

*gets to coding, with an evil glint in his eyes*

God Valxirion

02-21-2005, 03:47 PM

maybe a little less tough dragon, but without buffs, just like the master, but then a very hard master :twisted:

but turn out the dragon search module please, it annoys much people and doesn't add that much

onedarkdemon1

02-21-2005, 04:49 PM

well for slaying the dragon you should start to turn off buffs at 10 dks otherwise we will have a million level 15 farmies running around
(hey someone edited my chaos theroy that was well thought out too)

Sneakabout

02-21-2005, 05:29 PM

Heh.... if I fight the dragon with no buffs, he takes me to pieces....

I reckon the dragon will be toughened up regardless of anything else.

jrminga

02-21-2005, 06:49 PM

those of us high up can find it hard to suicide, too, forcing us to wait for the next game day to try and find the dragon again. i figure most of the top 10 or 20 can only really suicide on each other (now we're talking about a very small group of people here, but we're also likely talking about a very dedicated group, since they worked hard to get there), which limits the possibilities, since it's unlikely that many of this elite group will all be at the right level at the right time (especially if they're all killing each other).

that being said, i agree with many here that the dragonhunt being so random is more frustrating than challenging.
perhaps making the hunt an actual challenge? for example, giving clues, or puzzles to solve (i think one of the locked postings mentioned clues), or someone else mentioned having something else to fight (maybe a young, difficult dragonling, and if you survive, then you can search again?)
i agree that some of the buffs could possibly disappear (buzz should stay, but mounts can be afraid (and return after DKing/dying)), or elsething to make the fight harder.
but as it is, it's just:
look in cave 1/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, look in cave 2/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, curse
then suicide or wait, lather rinse repeat.

Pwyll

02-21-2005, 08:23 PM

OK, how does suiciding help? When you resurrect it's a New Day and the Dragon moves to a new cave, so you have no better chance of finding it than before you suicided. It may even be in a village you already searched.

When I can't find the dragon, I proceed with my Forest Fights, then kill three players in PvP who I know I can easily defeat. If I'm feeling really grumpy I pick on <people one level below being able to fight the dragon> to delay their advancement. Misery loves company, after all...

Nightwind

02-21-2005, 10:01 PM

1. 1. (spoiler) dragon only moves on new server day, not new character day. Just as travel and pvp do not refresh, the dragon does not move, just because something died. It's smart, not cowardly.

2. (spoiler) the dragon attack modual is still on. Instead of dying, or doing nothing in the forest, there is always the option instead to get 'too strong'

3. (spoiler) the mob does still exist. I don't understand how you can be 10 game days in and not seeing the results and interaction of this.

....

And sorry jcp if my comment seemed a little off, I was thinking that the easiest way to remove that one complaint was.. *shrugs* *zips his own lips*

JCP

02-21-2005, 10:07 PM

1. (spoiler) dragon only moves on new server day, not new character day. Just as travel and pvp do not refresh, the dragon does not move, just because something died. It's smart, not cowardly.

2. (spoiler) the dragon attack modual is still on. Instead of dying, or doing nothing in the forest, there is always the option instead to get 'too strong'

3. (spoiler) the mob does still exist. I don't understand how you can be 10 game days in and not seeing the results and interaction of this.

In the interest of accurate information:

One of these things is not like the others.
One of these things doesn't belong.
One of these things is not like the others.
Can you guess which one before the end of this song?

Angul

02-21-2005, 10:19 PM

Okay, I spent 4 real days looking for the dragon. That's...a long time. Granted, I spent maybe 2-3 GAME days sleeping, or watching a movie.

Personally, I dislike this module. It needs some major tweaking. Like Atrus said before the newer players such as farmies, etc, can/will find it frustrating to kill the dragon. I remember when I was a farmie it took me several game days to kill her. Now, put that on top of having to hunt the dragon down. I think I would QUIT.

Suggestion which I think I've suggested before: have a riddle about where the dragon can be found. Something obscure that CAN'T be googled, etc.

anyways, I'm not nearly as eloquent as many of the players. Just my two cents.

~Edit~ Don't get me wrong, the game needs challenge...and I like challenge...I just don't like such frustration.

Nightwind

02-21-2005, 10:53 PM

In the interest of accurate information:

One of these things is not like the others.
One of these things doesn't belong.
One of these things is not like the others.
Can you guess which one before the end of this song?

woopsie me...
well, i'll be finding out for myself in a few more days when i get back to dragon killing level again...

gotta love it when a mod if proved mortal by an error... *winks to the angry mob*

Aniko

02-21-2005, 11:24 PM

If the idea is to make the dragon more powerful and to slow down player advancement (specifically, to force people to spend a little more time at 15), how about giving the dragon some sort of random specials? It could randomly inflict the player with negative buffs, do extra damage, dispel specific personal buffs, etc.

This would allow for a balance between disallowing buffs entirely, and making the ability to fight the dragon based entirely on luck; there would still be an element of luck, but it wouldn't be the 'two chances and you lose for today' version that we have now, and players would be able to fight back against the Dragon's new abilities with abilities of their own.

It would also make fighting the Dragon more interesting, rather than just harder or more frustrating.

FullyIPX

02-21-2005, 11:44 PM

Personally, if you had waited only 3 days.... 3 lousy days to implement this change I would have been happy. But no.... let's keep IPX out of the 4 day DK club...... grrrrr....

:cry:

as it is, I refuse to be happy about this mod until I get my 4 day DK. (and yes, I have since seen the other new addition, so I will investigate that first on my next time around) :x

IPX

Qwyxzl

02-22-2005, 01:33 AM

I think that Atrus covered most of the reservations that I have about the dragon seeking. I know that there are many farmies that get frustrated with the length of time that it takes to get to the dragon in the first place. So adding time to that in a manner that they have little to no control over is definately something to avoid. As for those of us who have been around awhile and have a few DK under their belt, I think there does need to be more challenge. My only objection is that the potential exists that you could search forever and not find the dragon. I do not see this change as bad. Just in need of a little adjustment.

Sophen

02-22-2005, 02:37 AM

God Valxirion

02-22-2005, 09:47 AM

maybe that's a little bug, it shows up at each and every new day

SaucyWench

02-22-2005, 10:06 AM

/me scowls at the children

NONE of you have won any points in your slanging matches. Behave like adults, please. If you are good, you may have a cookie later. Are we all happy now? Is anyone going to cry about having the wrong colour crayon? Good.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the players who have been polite and constructive and supportive. The very few of you.

:cry:

FullyIPX

02-22-2005, 10:55 AM

8)

/me is suitably chastised.

Actually, my previous post was intended to be humorous rather than constructive, but I guess that didn't come across...

I started playing this game initially because I was a LoRD fan from years (I think it's been 15 now - wow) ago. I didn't exactly like travel at first, but then we get the special villages a couple times a year, and those more than make up for any inconveinences I found in travel. I also like getting waylaid more now - using my turns for travel doesn't hurt my exp. anymore, so it's a really good thing.

I expect the Dragon hunting to be more challenging now that there is a dwindling supply of dragons.... (that's the trouble with being soo good at slaying Dragons - you can put yourself out of work if you aren't careful :wink: )

So, on the whole, while I'm not crazy about the change, I suppose I can live with it, so long as I get a cookie :wink: (After all, if I really wanted to play in IPX land, I would host my own server instead of whining everytime I think the admins should change something on central :D )

Also, I would like to thank the staff for contributing their time and energy towards providing this game to the community for free, and for constantly improving it. My hat's off to you all.

SaucyWench

02-22-2005, 10:59 AM

Thank you. :D

http://www.oldetimecooking.com/Images/Recipes/chocchipcookie.jpg

Sophen

02-22-2005, 11:10 AM

:?: you are asked for your opinion and if you do so, you are offended by a senior admin :?: very grown-up :?

FullyIPX

02-22-2005, 12:12 PM

<Cookie monster voice>Mmmmmm! Me love cookies! CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP mmmmm.....</Cookie monster voice>

:?: you are asked for your opinion and if you do so, you are offended by a senior admin :?: very grown-up :?

Sophen, it is not the opinions that were offensive, but rather the *tone* of the opinions. Speaking as one of the guilty parties (I made my first post above around mid-night, intending to be humorous, and upon reading it this morning discovered that it appeared more whiny than funny), the tone should be polite and sincere. Many of the posts in these forums could be paraphrased as follows:

"*I* don't like , and *I* think [i]you should change your game to accomodate *me*."

This isn't helpful, it isn't considerate, and it isn't very nice. Saucy was merely trying to illustrate the absurdity of such posts by responding in kind. She was actually being nice - she could have used deadly sarcasm :D

IPX

Elessa

02-22-2005, 12:43 PM

spoiler:

I think one bad problem is that the developer didnt say us the new rules of the new script. So I think, lots of player stop getting experience when they advance to lvl15. Otherwise they would notice, that the dragon finds the player.
That was my problem. I searched two cavces and locked out. Very annoying.
Then I pvp-ed some enemys and suddenly there was a dragon.

Ok, it might be interesting to discover new features in Lotgd, but some fundamental information must given to the player!!!

:sits puzzled for a moment as she tries to decipher what she has just read

ye know, i seem to recall that a tenet of this game is that it is for the players to explore and discover how things work. what "new rules"? i seem to recall a lovely message, also known as an MoTD, written by JCP which pretty much explained the new feature to us that appeared on the day the feature was implemented.

Nightwind

02-22-2005, 01:24 PM

:sits puzzled for a moment as she tries to decipher what she has just read

ye know, i seem to recall that a tenet of this game is that it is for the players to explore and discover how things work. what "new rules"? i seem to recall a lovely message, also known as an MoTD, written by JCP which pretty much explained the new feature to us that appeared on the day the feature was implemented.

I think I almost understand it.

I think they met the 'dragon ambush' for the first time, and might think it's new.

I further belive it to be saying that most people stop exploring and fighting at level 15 just because the warrior arena says "nobody stronger then you" and i've come to realise that's a shame.... but also that it's not my fault that tey stop looking.

I am sure that this modual will become a beloved part of the game, that no server would think about disableing once a non beta is relased

Nick the Lemming

02-22-2005, 02:38 PM

Put me down for "frustrating". I'd prefer if there was some quicker limit on when you get to face it,

*SNIP* Kinda a secret there, even if it was acidental. (Nightwind)

or have two dragons so that there's a higher chance of finding it when you search, if you really want to have a dragonsearch. Otherwise, it is frustrating, and takes some of the enjoyment out of the game, as far as I'm concerned.

Sophen

02-22-2005, 03:03 PM

@Ellesa:
Sorry, but my english is very basic. So "somtimes" I use the wrong phrases like "new rules" or other. And perhaps I dont understand that MotD. All I can find there is that you have 2 tries for killing the dragon now.

@Nightwind: yes , You are right. I am a GOD for some times now but I never had a reason to keep on fighting after lvl15. So I didnt know the 'dragon ambush'.

@FullyIPX: ok , I do understand this. I am a developer myself and I know this problem very well. But its not the way to handle it. Just ignore useless posts (like mine :wink: ) But I ask myself what does they want to hear? "Yes, its wonderful"?

Elessa

02-22-2005, 03:08 PM

:re-reads the entire thread and notices that there is a hint mentioned that possibly corresponds greatly to a request being made by most folk

i think that perhaps some of us haven't fully explored all the possiblities for finding the elusive beast

Pwyll

02-22-2005, 03:32 PM

Elessa

02-22-2005, 03:40 PM

No one - not even the Sr. Admin (sorry, JCP!) - should ever cut off discussion of a feature simply because they don't want to deal with a flood of negative feedback about something they've worked hard on and think is the greatest thing since Al Gore invented the Internet. :P Sorry, guys, we don't get to not listen to people who hate what we program, no matter how much we hate hearing it. Remember, players are like any other end-user group - they can be fickle and they will vote with their feet - and checkbooks - if you make them angry enough.

i read the posts made by jcp when the feature first became a topic of discussion. i did not find him unwilling to 'deal with a flood of negative feedback'. rather i believe that given the nature of the type of feature and its potentially taking a day or more to discover the location of the dragon, he wanted to wait for time to pass in order for us to more fully understand the ramifications of the feature to our characters.

how can ye immediately decide that a feature of this type is a negative if ye have only had a game day, perhaps two of experiencing it?

i also note that we were not without tools to hunt down this dragon if only we had used some commonsense. i noted earlier that mention has been made in this thread that hints to it and believe me, i shall use this ability in order to hunt more effectively.

Nightwind

02-22-2005, 03:44 PM

God Valxirion

02-22-2005, 03:49 PM

They should make an anti-wandering dragon fund, and the dragon stops wandering when the fund drive is 100%, then we're both happy :P

muad

02-22-2005, 04:09 PM

what's really bugging me is that out of the few thousand players registered on the central site, thirty six have taken the time to vote about this module. seven of those thirty six have not been effected by the module. so it seems as though twenty nine players have something to say and that is all? do the others not know about this board? i have seen many comments in the town squares related to the disappearing dragon. maybe others are just happy to have such a great, online, free RPG that whatever happens, as long as the community stays intact, they will play?

i still like the mod. i am not always going to be happy to wait if i fall victim to the randomness of the dragon hunt but i am not in a race with friends. i play because i like the game and the community. having read the other comments about speed issues and such, i can understand that viewpoint. maybe the mod needs some tweaking. perhaps four dragons (three that will clean your clock and one normal strength) will be better? i don't know.

i just wish more players would comment on what is obviously an issue.

JCP

02-22-2005, 04:16 PM

Since the discussion seems to have calmed down or at least looks to be losing focus:

Let me first thank the people who privately filed petitions or sent me YOMs that politely explained their viewpoints. You can skip the next few paragraphs.

I must say that I was highly disappointed in the number of threatening and/or insulting YOMs I received, at the conspiracies going behind my back, at the planned acts of terrorism against the site, and at the half-dozen posts on this forum during the "1-week non-comment period" over a minor change to the game.

And before that sentence sets off another firestorm, yes, this was a minor change. Let's use a scale of 1-10. If most changes we make to the game rank a 2-3, then this one is certainly a 10. But we have plans to instroduce changes that would rank about a 900 on that scale. So if you thought this was a major change, you haven't seen anything yet. (These changes are still in the early conceptual stage and cannot be discussed since no concrete details exist.)

I take full responsibility for the game settings on the Central Server. But that does not change the fact that many people are involved in deciding what settings and options are available, nor the fact that this is a beta site.

And I use beta to mean more than "we can change anything we want" - it also means that as beta players we need intelligent feedback from you, not knee-jerk reactions that your virtual life just became a little bit harder. We really did need that 1-week in "admin-land" for a few people to take your concerns seriously.

If we "want to lose players" we can just shut the site down. It's that simple. So of course we do not institute policies for that purpose - shutting the site down would be much more efficient. We do, however, try to offer a challenging game people play. We certainly can't make it so that every thing is enjoyable.

There has just been a wide-spread lack of trust that we know what we're doing and that we do care about the game. And that does not sit well with me.

Let me try to respond to key items.

Ok so there you have it. By my calculations this equates to
Pro = 3 arguments, Con = 4 arguments.

Okay. But as an admin I have different lists of pros and cons and mine end up being in favor of the mod.

I partly like it, it's good that there aren't four dragons but just one, but why you may only search 2 times a day?
why not just 4 times? or 3 times?

A good question. Let's review how I came up with it.

There are 4 active forests, giving us 1-4 searches as possibilities.

1 search per day, though recommended by one of the staff, just seems too evil.

4 searches per day is possible, but loses one of the main abilities of the module - being able to miss the dragon completely. No matter what your opinion, it is part of the module I wanted to explore.

That leaves 2 or 3 searches. I picked 2 because I figured that it gave a pretty good chance for a daily search and because if necessary I could always increase it to 3.

My other concern (and yes I have raised this) is that this mod, if it stays, must not affect players with less than 5 DK's....the frustration and anger of a farmie on their first DK and not being able to move into the next level can only be imagined...we may lose players this way...and that is a bad thing in my book.

A valid concern. And while low-DK players are not immune from this module, they do face different odds than high-DK players, so it should be less frustrating for them.

This was a new addition to the code, and a direct result from this thread. Thank you for the positive contribution.

certain other modules that should or could have kicked in after a certain number of days didn't

I'm not sure about the specifics, but there are no guarantees in the code, and - if these are the modules I am thinking of - other considerations as well in regards to the triggers.

"The game is called Legend of the Green Dragon...not "Where is the Green Dragon""?

I hate to sound flippant, but it's not called "Kill the Green Dragon As Fast As Possible" either.

I have seen suggestions that there be hints left around the place - inns perhaps, or forest special only activating (but not that frequent, and limited to one per day) when it's time (such as the "pay <x> person a gem for something - the something being a hint that the dragon is not <wherever>).

Just because no one has found any hints does not mean they do not exist.

The one downside I see is that anyone who wants a "DK time record" now has an extra obsticle, compared with "before".

Well, yes. There is an extra choice for players to make now in how they overcome this extra step.

I hope you will change the dragon back to the normal setting, 4 dragons, one in each cave.

I'm afraid it's not going to happen. I do hope that once all of the features of this mod are explored you will think differently.

chances are that later modifications to the game will make the road to Godhood longer, not shorter.

Yes. LotGD exists in short-outline form, with an eye towards huge-novel. As we add content and evolve we will, generally, add to the time necessary to play a cycle.

It's been said that this change makes the game "more challenging".

I believe that this is a mis-quotation. This module solves one basic problem I had with the "routine" of the game, and made dragon-killing preparation a no-brainer. Irregardless of the battle itself, this module changes how you prepare for the battle. This lets me reactivate some of the more powerful drinks, for example, since "preparing" for the fight is no longer as guaranteed.

What it does is makes killing the dragon a game of chance rather than skill.

To be honest, most of the game is chance rather than skill. We've just usually done a better job of hiding that fact.

the dragon should be made harder to kill

We are working on this.

It's been said that this change makes the game "more realistic" since there is, after all, only one dragon and it can't be in four villages at once. This argument fails when put into the overall game context: Presumably there is only one Garden and one Clan hall for each clan, yet you can get to the Gardens from all villages and you can get to your Clan Halls from all villages. Why shouldn't you be able to get to the Dragon's cave from all villages?

This is a terrible comparison. A solution to the social problem of multiple villages cannot be compared to a forest combat module. Just because one solution works in one situation does not mean we are beholden to use it in all situations.

Some have spoken of the "race" to kill the dragon as a bad thing.

Let's say you write a novel. You give me the novel. I read the first page and the last page and then ask for your next novel. Would that make you perfectly happy?

There is a lot of code and a lot of game that occurs in between dragonkills. Players that race through and ignore that content can be very disheartening for coders that spend thousands of volunteer hours creating that content.

We have never prevented anyone from racing through the game, but, in general, it is not the preferred way for a player to experience the game.

All you've done in this poll is ask how much longer a player's hunt for the dragon is, not whether they like it or not.

Because that is the fact that is driving the staff discussions on this module.

perhaps making the hunt an actual challenge? for example, giving clues, or puzzles to solve (i think one of the locked postings mentioned clues)

Any such system can eventually be googled or information shared otherwise, which does not make it optimal.

If the idea is to make the dragon more powerful and to slow down player advancement

Not really. One of the major driving forces is that the dragon should be unique and not so very simple to find.

I think one bad problem is that the developer didnt say us the new rules of the new script. So I think, lots of player stop getting experience when they advance to lvl15. Otherwise they would notice, that the dragon finds the player.
That was my problem. I searched two cavces and locked out. Very annoying.
Then I pvp-ed some enemys and suddenly there was a dragon.

Ok, it might be interesting to discover new features in Lotgd, but some fundamental information must given to the player!!!

All the little secrets and nuances of this module were not explained on purpose.

It has been a very good learning experience. Players were not spoon-fed information and are now complaining that features should be added to the module - features that already exist!

We prefer that players actually play and explore, instead of being told everything.

Besides, technically a few of those features are not part of this module, but how other modules interact with it - which is quite clever.

Some other items:

I donated, this is not what I paid for

We don't run a subscription site for this very reason. We appreciate your donation to help offset server costs (which have generally not been covered by donations - this month is a happy exception), but we make no promises beyond that.

MightyE has been very good about refunding any money should that demand be made, however.

Either you change it back or I will leave.

Our answer to any such threat is firm: "Good bye."

Change is bad!

So many people complained about this change, invoking arguments that this made the game "more complicated" for beginning players. However when other changes are made that make things "more complicated" in a way that benefits players, there are no complaints.

That's why this argument is generally discounted and ignored.

In summary - keep looking. For the dragon, and for the help you need to find it.

Once someone figures it out, I'm sure they will be regarded as a hero.

Until then, I'm not spoiling it for anyone.

Pwyll

02-22-2005, 07:30 PM

JCP

02-22-2005, 08:46 PM

UpstandingCitizen Selekta

02-22-2005, 09:06 PM

Alrighty...I thought it was about time that I piped up a bit.

First off:
1 search per day, though recommended by one of the staff, just seems too evil.

Hehe...I bet 50 bucks on Deimos with that one :)

Now:
I am going to immediately cast my opinion, I want the mod to stay.
It wasnt placed to make us angry, it was placed because it is a new aspect to the game. Bottom line. I personally dont think that jcp is out for blood, and just wants to annoy his players. Instead of whining about it, and causing a fuss...I think that we players should have more of an open mind to change. You cant get as fast of a DK, So what? Now the new race will be DK-speed WITH the module. Doesnt sound like a bad thing to me. Granted, its annoying. I found myself with my thumb in my ear for 4 game days, but I eventually found it, and was happy. I think that many more changes will accompany this mod. LotGD-BETA was made to be under constant development. LotGD is expanding almost daily. New modules and features are being weaved in all the time. Who is to say LotGD wont find itself on the map with WoW or Evercrack? Bottom line#2 is, if you dont like it...there is the LoGDnet link on CENTRAL with over 50 different servers on it. None of them have this module. Have at it.
To the programmers, my sentiments.

Acemaster

02-22-2005, 09:52 PM

Judging by his avatar it seems he is out for blood... luckily that is not true.

Elessa

02-22-2005, 10:14 PM

And I use beta to mean more than "we can change anything we want" - it also means that as beta players we need intelligent feedback from you, not knee-jerk reactions that your virtual life just became a little bit harder. We really did need that 1-week in "admin-land" for a few people to take your concerns seriously.

as someone who has been involved in the computer industry for far too many years to enumerate, i would like to expand on what JCP said.

this particular server for the game is known as the "central" server. it is a "beta" server. we are not merely players of an online game for pure entertainment. we have the privilege and responsibility of playing the game, testing the features, finding the bugs and imbalances that may exist so that the game may become better. we, the players, are here to provide feedback to the developers of the game so that it may grow. our comments provide insight to the developers with regard to what does or doesn't necessarily work.

eventually, this game will be released in a "final" version. granted there will always be upgrades, but it will reach a stage where it will be distributed even more widely.

yes, there may be changes that occur as the game grows and expands. yes, those changes may frustrate us as we have to adapt. but we, the players, are here to help those whose hobby is coding and providing us with our fix of a challenging text based fantasy game.

i, for one, rather enjoy seeing the game as it permutates and look forward to whatever else may change.

Cnedra

02-22-2005, 11:22 PM

Well looks like I got in a bit late, didnt realise the dragon topic was already up! Anyhow, to the point... I don't really think that there is anything I can add to the prior arguemens for and against except to state my personel opinion and why...

However I have not yet had a chance to even search for the dragon - due to a bout of rotten luck in the feilds- but I have, from others pros/cons, come to a personel (if uneducated for obvious reasons) decision...

I think Atrus is right when he says that the mod needs tweaking, ie instead of only 2 searches possibly 3, and yes, for those of us with less dk's, there should definatly be some sort of leverage..... afterall, besides the frustration level (which hass plagued me recently) there is the statistics and those without dk's are going to find it doubly tough since there is less chance of being able to be totally prepared for the dragon now, ie buffs, due to travelling and since those with less dk's have less strenght (hitpoints attack defence) it makes it much MUCH harder, in theory, for them to be successful against the dragon when they do face it.

so yeah, i basically agree with atrus, ithink it should stay, with some tweaks, .... very dissaponted i didnt get to it first *pouts*

Ebru

02-22-2005, 11:43 PM

I have no issues at all with the mod. I can understand how it could be an issue for some but at the end of the day like most things on LotGD you can work around it and make a game plan that works. I thought the point of the whole event was to have to think about things if it was a mouse clicking event that people are after try Mine Sweeper. :twisted:

Fionnabhair

02-23-2005, 12:07 AM

I wonder if the purpose of the "beta" server is not to test the game, but a grad student's sociology experiment. And if I'm wrong (which I probably am), someone should alert a grad student to the existence of all this great research material!! This forum is free data for a dissertation on how humans react to change. This is great stuff.

And by the way, I love the new module. I'm happy to slow down and explore the game a bit more, and I'm also very happy to know that I don't know all the game secrets, and there are still many for me to reveal to myself. That's what makes this game fun for me.

*This comment may seem a bit off-topic, but as it was this thread that made me think of it, I thought I should just post it here and let the powers that be move it if they deem necessary*

No need - Syrius :wink:

SaucyWench

02-23-2005, 01:12 AM

:?: you are asked for your opinion and if you do so, you are offended by a senior admin :?: very grown-up :?From your response it appears that the tone of my message has been lost in translation. My response was satirical, a joking way of making my point without getting angry. I apologise if you actually thought I was trying to chastise anyone in a serious way. A native English speaker would never speak the way I did if they were actually being serious - if you heard it spoken, I would sound like a Kindergarten teacher. :)

SaucyWench

02-23-2005, 01:21 AM

When users are ignored or, worse, prohibited from making any negative comments, the whole game suffers... No one - not even the Sr. Admin (sorry, JCP!) - should ever cut off discussion of a feature simply because they don't want to deal with a flood of negative feedback about something they've worked hard on and think is the greatest thing since Al Gore invented the Internet. :P Your comments are 100% correct, but unfortunately I think you have misinterpreted JCP's reason for limiting the whining. And yeah, some of it was whining. It's one thing for players to say, "Hey, we don't like this." But it's quite another thing to enlist other players, influence them into disliking the changes, cajoling them into joining the complaint force, assuring them that if they complain they get whatever they want, and then storming the admins in a sea of dicontent.

What the incessant whining did was to bias players against the changes. Players who had no opinion either way, or who had never even seen the changes, or who had not even come close to killing the dragon, were suddenly very vocal in their disapproval. It was for that reason the discussion had to stop. We cannot stem a tide like that. We do the same if ANY player in game starts a revolt against any staff member. We cut them off, dead. It is not democratic. But it's bad luck - we are a team of 20ish and we can't possibly stop a storm of protest that only encourages ill feelings and negativity.

Atrus

02-23-2005, 03:03 AM

jcp:my quote was in context as it was one I had received..I just wanted to post it because it was indicative of the frustration some felt.

I am very happy that my ideas were looked at (and even more happy that they were implemented in a way....ooookay, Saucy where's my cookie??..huh??...huh?? :lol: :lol: )

In a few weeks more we will all have adapted to the new changes(change is difficult...but, as has been driven home to me in recent weeks by events in my own life)..change is inevitable...we don't always have to like it..but we must accept it.

Thank you for hearing me out, jcp:)

Nocturnus

02-23-2005, 04:59 AM

Just because no one has found any hints does not mean they do not exist.

I am aware of this being a possibility, I was merely sharing things that I had seen around the place. Not everyone looks at the forum, it would seem.

I'm even further now from getting to the dragon then I was when I originally posted, and still say leave it. As you said, someone will work it out, eventually. People fear change, but without change things stagnate and become boring.

So, I still say... Bring on the changes! :)

ogunshi

02-23-2005, 06:05 AM

I'm sure the idea seems wonderful in concept, but in pratice, well it's a real stinker. One begins to lose intrest in the game when the rewards do not match the efforts given.

Just my two cents.
Ogunshi

Oblivion

02-23-2005, 06:53 AM

I just wanted to say my experiences with this as a farmboy/page/squire. I discovered this game not too long ago. I got my first Dragon Kill before this mod was introduced. When I first killed the dragon, I wondered, "Wow... that was a lot easier than I thought". After all, this game is all about the Legend of the Green Dragon right? I figured it would be a bit more difficult and possibly a bit legendary. Of course, at the time of my first Dragon Kill, I was fully buffed.

On my second attempt at the dragon, it took a bit longer. Not like this mattered to me, I wasn't keeping track of the days and I was still learning and exploring the game. I actually met the dragon quite a few times in my attempt to defeat it the second time around. The first two times I ended up finding the dragon, unprepared, and then falling prey. On my third attempt, I found it and was fully prepared. With the third attempt, the actual battle seemed, again, fairly easy. Still, it was pretty fun and amusing overall.

Could it be possible to search the dragon's empty cave? I think being able to search the empty dragon caves could add a bit more depth and interest to the search.

Overall, the mod didn't really negatively affect me as a low Dragon Kill player. I was new and was exploring the game. Trying to get fast Dragon Kills wasn't really a concern and spending a few extra days before slaying the dragon wasn't really a big deal. I was just playing the game, not really aware of the days going by. I suppose those random situations where one may come across the Dragon, unprepared, may catch a farmboy by surprise and will probably eat him alive, but hey, all the more reason to get it the next time.

At first I was kind of sympathetic to the Dragon. Always being hunted and how all its offspring would even fight with each other till only one survived, only to be hunted down again, I guess it would make sense that the survivor would want to go out, randomly attacking its enemies when it was big enough!

Overall, I find Legend of the Green Dragon to be a very amusing game and this mod just adds to the amusement.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention something. The Dragon's Breath!!! *laugh* What a funny thing. That sure helped a lot in finally getting the dragon!

Swallowing raging hot fires, passing out, belching tables on fire, only to come across the Green Dragon herself, then in what was probably drunken stuper, waking up covered in blood with no memory of what happened. Or maybe the blood wasn't there anymore *memory has become hazy after the past couple memory wipes*.

Sorry, I guess I ended up writing a fairly long post that wandered off-topic =x

pontoono

02-23-2005, 07:52 AM

I despise the new change. My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP, so as to do my part in sharing the extra time added.

JCP

02-23-2005, 08:33 AM

but as it is, it's just:
look in cave 1/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, look in cave 2/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, curse
then suicide or wait, lather rinse repeat.

Nope.

Actually you're missing quite a bit of other things to do or have happen.

for those of us with less dk's, there should definatly be some sort of leverage

Please read the long post that I spent about an hour typing. This feature is already there.

the point of the whole event was to have to think about things

That's where we want the whole game to be - we want players to interact and make choices, not just clicks.

I wonder if the purpose of the "beta" server is not to test the game, but a grad student's sociology experiment.

Ok, this was probably a joke, but it is very close to the truth.

I got my undergrad degree in chemistry and work as a chemist, but I minored in sociology and do some things with the game as social experiments.

Nothing terrible, but I am more aware of what we tell players / don't tell players and what the reactions are / could be than most people think.

One begins to lose intrest in the game when the rewards do not match the efforts given.

Well, I think the problem is that people are putting their efforts in the wrong place.

Right now, 99% of the players (the staff has been made aware of all the features) believe that the new path to the dragon outlined in the MotD is the ONLY new path to the dragon. That is not the case.

Could it be possible to search the dragon's empty cave? I think being able to search the empty dragon caves could add a bit more depth and interest to the search.

"Empty" caves should have something for you to find.

My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP

Moderators have been prime PvP targets since the dawn of the game.

lvangundy

02-23-2005, 09:21 AM

With the new mod, I think the forest fights between town travels should ALWAYS be equal to a 'slumming' fight.

I've always wanted to suggest this, and I think now is a perfect time. This is one aspect that I might PAY to change.

jrminga

02-23-2005, 10:16 AM

but as it is, it's just:
look in cave 1/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, look in cave 2/4
if lucky, fight dragon
if not, curse
then suicide or wait, lather rinse repeat.

Nope.

Actually you're missing quite a bit of other things to do or have happen.

i know. that was more of a gut reaction to the frustration.
i've found the dragon three times since this mod was installed. with all of the comments both positive and negative, and the mods' patient explanations, i actually feel kind of bad for still not being the biggest fan of this change*.
i've found the [game secret] that helps somewhat (maybe overmuch, but i've only used it once, and can't tell how much was luck and how much was the [game secret]. i still feel that finding the dragon is too much a matter of luck rather than skill.
JCP dismissed a suggestion earlier (and here i'm not attributing any malice to him) made by myself and others that perhaps clues or puzzles could be used by stating that the answers could be easily googled or revealed by friends. i still think that something could be done to make skill more of a factor, but i'll admit i'm hard pressed to come up with specifics.

That's where we want the whole game to be - we want players to interact and make choices, not just clicks.
Again, i feel that the "choices" we make are, game secrets notwithstanding, are uninformed ones, and that can be frustrating.
Of course, it can also be argued that almost every Something Special! is gone into with no foreknowledge of the turnout, and the results can range from the beneficial to the tragic. My feeble counterargument is that this particular event is the main focus of the game itself**, and should not be left purely to the whims of the RNG.

*(then again, i'm still not the biggest fan of the multiple towns. i appreciate them for what they are, i've adapted my strategy to deal with them, i enjoy the differences between them and the multiple places for PvP, but i still miss some of the aspects of the single-town, mostly the social aspect of the one place where everyone congregates.)

**(i'm ignoring the social aspects that sprung up as a result, and unfortunately also ignoring all of the other work that the coders do; the game is called "Legend of the Green Dragon", not "Look at all the neat stuff". Again, i mean absolutely no slight to any and all of the hard work that the coders do, and i'm often among the first to comment on the amazement brought about by a new module. This is purely for the purpose of this single, and not very good, argument. I apologize profusely to all of the coders whom i may have inadvertently offended.)

Moonchilde

02-23-2005, 10:26 AM

I would like to start by apologizing for my part in the minor flame war that ensued over the last few posts. :oops: Nightwind, truce, OK? :)

Now, on to the next order of business:

(After all, if I really wanted to play in IPX land, I would host my own server instead of whining everytime I think the admins should change something on central :D)

I do not think that players voicing their dislike for a game feature is whining, and to call it that is demeaning to the players who are, after all, a major part of why the game exists. Sure, MightyE could program it any way he wanted and sit in his living room playing it to his heart's content, but what would be the point of that? This game is coded in PHP, and PHP is part of the open source community. Look at that phrase, and expecially the last word. Open, as in available to all. Community as in a group of people working together to create something.

When users are ignored or, worse, prohibited from making any negative comments, the whole game suffers. Developers should never work in a vacuum and should never be allowed to run loose without checks and balances in the form of user feedback. I know what I'm talking about, I'm a programmer! :wink:

No one - not even the Sr. Admin (sorry, JCP!) - should ever cut off discussion of a feature simply because they don't want to deal with a flood of negative feedback about something they've worked hard on and think is the greatest thing since Al Gore invented the Internet. :P Sorry, guys, we don't get to not listen to people who hate what we program, no matter how much we hate hearing it. Remember, players are like any other end-user group - they can be fickle and they will vote with their feet - and checkbooks - if you make them angry enough.

I, and several others, started out with a calm presentation of why we think the "wandering dragon" is not a good thing. Some of us got sarcasm in return. Some of us - me, in particular - took offense and got grouchy in our replies. For that, I apologize; but I still think the discussion itself is a good thing, disagreements and all.

I will strive to remain civil and polite in all future discussions on this and other topics on this board. Just please don't call me a whiner when I don't like something and say so - that is more anger-provoking than any modification to the game could ever be. Even the guy who posts "d00d, that sux big time, y did u do it?" has the right to his say. Besides, for all you know he might be planning to make a $100 donation tomorrow... :)

Please note! I am responding to this before having ready anything after it though I have been reading this thread completely.

Pwyll: Jumping up and down and demanding something be changed without it having been given sufficient (or even any) time *is* whining. And, it's grating an annoying when everything Eric or I code, or add to the game is done with the intent of making the game experience as a whole better. I've said before, and I'll say again, people won't always like change. Some changes will have what some percieve as negative side effects. This is NOT a reason for us, as developers an game admins to jump and change the game.

Yes, PHP is an open source community. LotGD is an open source community (btw, just because something is written in PHP by no means requires it to be open source or even a community!!). All that means is that everyone is free to take the code and add to it and make more out of it. It does *not* give anyone te right to demand that someone else make a specific change. It does give IPX the right to do what he said he could, which is make an IPXland and have it run by whatever rules he wants.

When we shut down discussion on a new feature for a time, it is not because we don't want feedback. What we don't want is *reactionary* feedback from people who haven't explored the possibilities of the new system and are just going 'Ugh! Hate change!'.

Every single time we've introduced a major change to the game, people have started immediately saying how much they hate it. And in the long run, most of them have come back and said 'you know I was wrong...'

We do tweak things over time as we get *reasoned* feedback, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm imperfect and that what I think is going to work one way doesn't always. I will code and adjust, but I won't do so based on reactive responses, but based on experience over time.

Now.. on to reading the rest of the replies in this thread.

JCP

02-23-2005, 10:39 AM

i've found the [game secret] that helps somewhat (maybe overmuch, but i've only used it once, and can't tell how much was luck and how much was the [game secret]. i still feel that finding the dragon is too much a matter of luck rather than skill.

You may want to PM me with what you think the [game secret] is.

The [game secret] to finding the dragon is very much based on game playing skill and not luck.

Again, i feel that the "choices" we make are, game secrets notwithstanding, are uninformed ones, and that can be frustrating.

We deal with different choices in different ways.

We hint at the abilities of mounts, because we do want players to make a semi-informed choice but also want them to try as many different mounts as possible.

Many other things are events or abilities we want players to try out over the course of playing the game. The first time you encounter a choice you may not know how to handle it, but after you try different options you should have a better idea. In this case the information comes from your personal experience. Unfortunately many people (perhaps not you) refuse to make any choice when faced with that lack of information.

My feeble counterargument is that this particular event is the main focus of the game itself**, and should not be left purely to the whims of the RNG.

It's not. Players do have a serious choice to make, but I'm not aware of anyone outside of the staff that has found where to make that choice.

Moonchilde has done an impressive job tweaking this module, and almost everything asked for (except turning it off or increasing the number of searches) is already in the game.

God Valxirion

02-23-2005, 10:56 AM

that new change of the module really softened it and I'm even starting to like it :P

virulen

02-23-2005, 11:18 AM

I enjoy the dragon hunt. Provides a challenge and doesn't make things as predictable. Limiting the search to only two caves per day is a little extreme, perhaps changing the search to three caves?

Waugh

02-23-2005, 11:38 AM

G'day all!

There's not a whole lot to say that hasn't been said already, so I'll add my comments to perhaps help the majority vote, if there will be such a thing.

This new mod is frustrating. Being a level 15, there's no real benefit to doing anything except killing the dragon. this game provides me something to do before work each morning for 30 mins a day. Going a few days without any luck finding the dragon is very annoying, and affecting my real enjoyment of the game.

I find myself doing what someone else earlier mentioned, suiciding and trying again. Since I am a level 15, it doesn't matter how many experience points I lose.

If too invest time and money into this game. I like the idea of new mods coming out to make the game more interesting. This particular mod perhaps falls short...

Damari

02-23-2005, 11:44 AM

I was new when this "Find the Dragon" mod was installed. So I didn't see much of a problem with it.

Here's how I went about finding the Dragon.

You have two chances to find it right? And four caves to look in.
SO -
On my first day I went to two Caves - No Dragon.
On the Second Day I went to those SAME two Caves. Waa Laaa.. there's the Dragon!!!

Reasoning?
First Day if you don't find it. Tough luck
Second Day if you go to the same caves you went to the day before you have about 75% chance of finding the Dragon

Why? Because you know 1. The Dragon will move.
You've already checked the Caves before right?
So working under the theory that the Dragon makes a 'circuit' then the second day the Dragon is either going to one of the two caves you've already checked OR the one Cave that you didn't (and of course the one he was in that previous day)

So with this theory.
Finding the Dragon shouldn't take more than Three Days Max. If you keep looking in the same two Caves each New Day.

Was that Clear as mud?
Okay. I'm only a page. So I've only worked this out and used it for one Dragon Kill. So if I'm wrong. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
But it's how I looked at it, when I sat down and thought about it.

Ohhhh... and HELLO !!!
I might as well get that in and introduce myself while I'm at it.

Cheers
Damari :lol:

God Valxirion

02-23-2005, 11:49 AM

welcome Damari, and this is completely true, but I don't think it apllies when you die and ressurect, I don't know for that

Waugh

02-23-2005, 11:51 AM

I doubt it always moves. I imagine they are using the RAND() function in PHP or something similar to place the Dragon in a certain cave. Completely random. Saying that we know it moves I feel is a little naive.

God Valxirion

02-23-2005, 11:53 AM

Doesnt the New Day link says: The Green Dragon wanders to a new cave

well, it gives me the idea that the green dragon wnaders to a new cave

Hostillius

02-23-2005, 11:59 AM

No offense, Damari, but your math is a bit off.
To the best of my knowledge, the dragon is *reassigned* to a new cave on the new game day.
After you fail to find the dragon one day, the next day you have the same chance of finding the dragon (excepting any module safeguards that improve your chances based on your time at level 15).

In the long run, the only way to improve your odds, however, is by choosing a fixed cave choice in advance. If you decide in advance to always try the same two caves, your chances are improved in the long run.

This can be viewed as a simple Heads/Tails coin-flipping problem.
It is very unlikely that you will not get a tails in 10 flips.
But if you have already flipped a coin and it has already landed on heads 9 times out of 9, the chance it will land on heads the next time is still 50%.

All of the math strategizing above is based on a simple 50% chance--a purely mathematical problem.
These arguments do not incorporate any coding that might influence future success based on past failure(s).

God Valxirion

02-23-2005, 12:02 PM

In the village I heard many people talking about a 58% and thats not 2/4 but 1/4+1/3, maybe a mod or admin can clear this up if it isnt a secret at least

BLOODDRAGON

02-23-2005, 12:11 PM

Catch that dragon!
‡‡Director jcp –2005-02-14 12:44:59
Finding the dragon will now require some actual hunting, not just clicking on "go to dragon" when that option becomes available.

There are still FOUR CAVES, one in each village forest, but there is only ONE DRAGON.

You can currently search TWO TIMES a day, allowing you to search half the hiding places, giving you a 58.3% chance of finding the dragon, and you may not be able to be as fully prepared as you have been in the past.

Does this make the game more challenging? You bet. Does this add some luck to beat speed records? Of course.

The MotD posted above is where they are getting the 58% from.

JCP

02-23-2005, 12:53 PM

Actually, I'm not completely sure about the percentages in this particular set-up and am too lazy to confirm.

You get to pick 2 out of the 4 caves, so 50% could be right.

But you pick 1/4 and then 1/3, so 58% could be right.

And then there's the secret thing that a few people have found (and are free to discuss if they want)...

Sneakabout

02-23-2005, 01:20 PM

Actually it's 1/4 + 1/3 * 3/4 (the chance of it not being the first being 3/4, and you multiply along.)

So it's 50%.

Elessa

02-23-2005, 01:43 PM

And then there's the secret thing that a few people have found (and are free to discuss if they want)...

:arches her brow with a mischievous grin

do ye mean having a conversation with a certain individual with the ability to grant a means of 'seeing' into other places?

Damari

02-23-2005, 02:24 PM

No offense, Damari, but your math is a bit off.
To the best of my knowledge, the dragon is *reassigned* to a new cave on the new game day.
After you fail to find the dragon one day, the next day you have the same chance of finding the dragon (excepting any module safeguards that improve your chances based on your time at level 15).

In the long run, the only way to improve your odds, however, is by choosing a fixed cave choice in advance. If you decide in advance to always try the same two caves, your chances are improved in the long run.

No Offense taken, but I think we just said the same thing.

All of the math strategizing above is based on a simple 50% chance--a purely mathematical problem.
These arguments do not incorporate any coding that might influence future success based on past failure(s).

I did mention that I'd based my deduction on a 'circuit' as opposed to random Dragon placement.

What I want to know now.. is that 'seeing' where the Dragon is. I'm curious about that... and I'm hoping someone in the know will post it. (since we have permission to do so)

Damari

Elessa

02-23-2005, 02:29 PM

:looks at Damari and points to her post above his

there be only one person in the game who has the ability to provide the players with the ability to "see" what is happening in all the villages.

she tends to favour brightly coloured clothing and crystal balls...

MetaDadaranel

02-23-2005, 03:35 PM

Hey, a whole week has passed, time sure flies...

Anyway, now that I've read through the whole thing here, I don't have quite the ill feelings towards the module that I did before. I hit [dragon hunting level] the day after the module was introduced, so I ran my searches, came up empty, and poked around a little bit. I didn't do too much, but I think I hit the shhh! ;), and I don't remember any shhh! ;) option. If there's a message when you start shhh! ;) the towns about the villagers feeling uneasy or anything, I missed it. I am also surprised to learn that the green dragon will shhh! ;)the same way shhh! ;). Seems to me an intelligent creature would want to shhh! ;). I've just finished gearing up for a new run at the dragon, although it will still be a few levels, but when I get the requirements fulfilled I guess I'll have to really spend some time looking for the hinted-at workarounds.

Anyanka

02-23-2005, 05:40 PM

i just wish more players would comment on what is obviously an issue.

Quite frankly, I do not often visit the forums. This may account for many players lack of comment here.

Ok, this was probably a joke, but it is very close to the truth.

I got my undergrad degree in chemistry and work as a chemist, but I minored in sociology and do some things with the game as social experiments.

Nothing terrible, but I am more aware of what we tell players / don't tell players and what the reactions are / could be than most people think.
You really are evil....arent you :cry: ?

AgDrag

02-23-2005, 06:59 PM

Maybe I am missing something here....the only way this slows my kills down is if I run out of travel. Search 2, suicide, search the other 2, bingo, job done :D

Would rather see something other than gold as a reward for missed dragons...what use is gold at 15?

Belson

02-23-2005, 08:25 PM

I just haven't had time to post on this before and I'm kind of glad because its given me time to think. I hated this change at first but now I'm neutral. I would like to see one change made. I would like to see an auto-challenge by the dragon at a certain number of XP. I would suggest at a level equivalent of 17. At that high the person has no way of knowing when it will come up so he will probably not be prepared. Also after that many XP, he's put in a significant effort after reaching level 15.

I realize that this change might be difficult but I was also thinking that it might be interesting to change the dragon wandering to some type of quest. Something like instead of the dragon living close by, have him live far off. The player would then have to acquire a map to the dragon's lair. Just something to think about.

BLOODDRAGON

02-23-2005, 08:28 PM

Deimos

02-23-2005, 09:22 PM

Just to elaborate, I'm pretty sure none of the dragon related modules are based on experience.

Fionnabhair

02-23-2005, 09:29 PM

I wonder if the purpose of the "beta" server is not to test the game, but a grad student's sociology experiment.

Ok, this was probably a joke, but it is very close to the truth.

I got my undergrad degree in chemistry and work as a chemist, but I minored in sociology and do some things with the game as social experiments.

Nothing terrible, but I am more aware of what we tell players / don't tell players and what the reactions are / could be than most people think.

Aha! I knew it. I *was* half-joking, but I was serious about it being a good way to people-watch.

You really are evil....arent you ?

I don't think it's evil, it's just a bit like being on Candid Camera. But with no cameras, so no public humiliation...

oracle

02-23-2005, 09:58 PM

im all for some kinda mod to change up dk's. i dont think this is the one, though. it took a very long time (i did the math...there was about a .2% chance it would take that long based on how many looks i did) and i am dreading getting back to dragon hunting level. maybe, if at least there was something interesting in empty caves? other dragons that beating would award some nice treasure, byut they arent the GREEN dragon? lots of options, but the mod in place not is just too...dull.

Cnedra

02-23-2005, 11:25 PM

First off, to make sure I am not taken the wrong way (as seems to happen all to often in many cases within these forums)

a) I am not demanding anything, I know that any work done on the mod is just that... work (as so many pople quite often seem to forget)and am already extremly grateful for the free game (i LOVE it)

b) I have read most but not all of the thread (its jolly long!) so sorry if I'v missed something

c)Sorry to JCP for making a comment on something which had already been addressed, I did not realise the discussion had advanced so far, call it a lapse of concentration if you wil *scolds self for being blonde*

I agree wholeheartedly with oracle who said

other dragons that beating would award some nice treasure, byut they arent the GREEN dragon? lots of options, but the mod in place not is just too...dull.

only in a slightly different sense, I know there are certain events in place in empty caves, but personnelly would love to see it shaken up and given a little spice.... I mean tripping over a bone and losing hp's isnt exactly thrilling so much as a minor nuisence (and again, i can only relate from personnel experience with the mod which so far is a whole one dk) perhaps a dragonplace discussion is requied in the feature request page for any suggestions since I am personnelly all out of creativity for the day... heh

and besides that, iv had one dk without the mod and one with it.... im quite enjoying it so far!

Nightwind

02-24-2005, 12:23 AM

I find myself doing what someone else earlier mentioned, suiciding and trying again. Since I am a level 15, it doesn't matter how many experience points I lose.

It's amazing how many things people 'know' are wrong.

you can't be certain they do 'nothing' until you've collected them all.

I remember i had a hobby on .7 ... had a farmcritter with 10X the exp of anybody else

SaucyWench

02-24-2005, 05:42 AM

I despise the new change. My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP, so as to do my part in sharing the extra time added.Feel free to attack me. Put a large bounty on me if you like, too.

Syrius

02-24-2005, 06:28 AM

I despise the new change. My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP, so as to do my part in sharing the extra time added.

**Laughs hysterically**

Oh pretty please please attack me.

Gee, you know, it doesn't happen too often, only about once every time I log off...Anyhow, I'm an easy kill, Stewardess level, usually found in the Qexelcrag fields, all dressed in pink.
:wink:

Atrus

02-24-2005, 06:40 AM

despise the new change. My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP, so as to do my part in sharing the extra time added.

Oooohh..me too me toooo :twisted: :twisted:

BLOODDRAGON

02-24-2005, 07:50 AM

you can always slay me but just a wanring that you would only get about 8 exp and my playing character Melchezedek, is still on the Isle of Wen... but none the less feel free to slaughter my low exp body :wink:

God Valxirion

02-24-2005, 10:04 AM

ah Qexelcrag, my home city
thanks for the hint :twisted:

FullyIPX

02-24-2005, 10:44 AM

I despise the new change. My response has been to kill every moderator I can in PVP, so as to do my part in sharing the extra time added.

Ok.... I like the change now - kill me too.... please! :lol: :lol:

IPX

P.S. I'm not really a moderator.... but why let that stop you? :lol:

Nightwind

02-24-2005, 11:24 AM

include me as well, i like a challenge, usualy in the inn, but i'll make it the fields this week

Pwyll

02-24-2005, 12:05 PM

I know of at least six players who told me in no uncertain terms that they hate this change, and not one of those six has said a word here. They may have voted without commenting, I have no way of knowing that...

They are talking to the wrong person. They need to talk to me.

Actually, that was exactly my point. Players may gripe among themselves, but if they don't talk to the Admins or join the Forum discussions, they aren't accomplishing anything and are in fact missing out on a great opportunity to participate in the evolution of the game.

I'd like to address an implicit message in jcp's comment above, even if I'm only imagining it. My discussions with other players regarding the wandering dragon mod were in no way meant as an attempt to co-opt any kind of authority over the game, nor to set myself up as a "pseudo-jcp". Neither was I trying to coerce, cajole or otherwise influence other players to share my opinion of the mod. I was simply looking for like-minded players who wanted to talk about ways to communicate their dislike of the module to the Admins. In retrospect, my methods were ill-considered and I can see how they might have been perceived as a "conspiracy" or something equally sinister. To anyone who was offended or angered by this, I offer my sincerest apologies. I hope that I have not caused anyone to form a permanent negative opinion of me.

This Forum thread has given me much to think about and pointed out to me some serious flaws in the way I communicate here. I'll be watching myself for that in the future...

There is one thing that another player mentioned that I'd like to expand on if I may:

Could it be possible to search the dragon's empty cave? I think being able to search the empty dragon caves could add a bit more depth and interest to the search.

Remember the many-roomed Ice Castle in the Christmas Village? I'm just sayin'... :)

oracle

02-24-2005, 12:55 PM

many roomed ice castle...not a bad idea....
im just saying "and the cave is empty" is awefully anticlimatic.

Pwyll

02-24-2005, 01:04 PM

Yes - you click on "Explore the Cave" and get some choices - "Follow the Underground Stream", "Go into the Chamber to the left", "Go Deeper Into the Cave" etc. Maybe you find gold, gems, magic potions etc. Or maybe a bat flies out at you and scares you out of a bunch of HP. And, like the Ice Castle, if something bad happens you won't be exploring any more caves that day... :twisted:

Nightwind

02-24-2005, 03:31 PM

DanaScully

02-24-2005, 05:21 PM

Okay, today I was killed by the dragon, the first day I was eligible to fight. Without giving away more than has been given, I like it. A whole new strategy is required to be sucessful (trading off costs and timing). I made poor choices and squandered hardwon resources only to be killed, but it won't happen again :)

I haven't been playing very long, but I was an avid LORD player in bbs heyday. But after a while, LORD got boring because it didn't evolve much or have very many features.

I spend all day at work on a computer working on technical manuals that have to be accurate. Not much room for experimentation. It is a lot of fun to come home and say "let's try that and see what happens" and that if something bad happens, nobody stays permanently dead or a pauper!

Pwyll

02-24-2005, 05:41 PM

and if youget very lucky, you might find yourself comming up in another cave, and saving yourself a search...

I like it! :)

ggeezz

02-24-2005, 06:22 PM

I wanted to post again since I've had some more time to reflect on/use the module and read other's thoughts.

First off, the game was still more enjoyable to me before this module than it is right now after the module. However, I now see that the module may be necessary to take the game to another level. My apologies to JCP and all the staff for seeming like we were doubting your vision for the game. You've made a great game and I do trust that you can make it better.

A while back Terron said something as he was telling someone that he was leaving the game that left an impression on me. He said he was leaving because he always felt like he had to get his turns in and he didn't think it should be that way (I think he meant in his life). The game really is that addicting and we are passionate about it. We have goals and some of us put forth a lot of effort to reach those goals. For Terron it was too much. Many of us are still having fun playing the game as best as we can.

When you put that much effort into learning the intricasies of a system and utilizing that knowledge to meet your goals (DK speed for many of us), you can get upset when the rules suddenly change in a way that negatively affects your progress and that you have no control over. That's what I belive many of us were feeling. We didn't doubt the staff's vision, we just had tunnel vision ourselves.

Well, that's just me trying to analyze the situation.

Earmak

02-24-2005, 06:55 PM

Page Earmak has a 100% success rate in finding the dragon - but only a 50% slay rate :)

Acemaster

02-24-2005, 07:44 PM

oracle

02-24-2005, 09:24 PM

the more i think on it, the more fond i grow of the "searching the cave" idea. while the game is certainly highly random, it doesnt feel that way. we THINK we have control over our fates. i think thats what this new thing is missing. it feels random. whereas, for example, travelling to get that last forest fight we need doesnt feel random (even though it most certainly is)

SussieSaxton

02-25-2005, 02:15 AM

It's different, something new. I was totally bummed though the first time I tried it becuase, according to my drunken characters bio, I bought the "dragon's Breath" which turned out to be totally worthless. I think you might see sales of that drink go down now. Note to self: stick with regular ale Sussie, you already have dragons breath.

Oblivion

02-25-2005, 02:50 AM

I found the Dragon's Breath VERY useful. On the Dragon's first attack, I reposted for 20% of the Dragon's HP or so...

God Valxirion

02-25-2005, 08:34 AM

then you were just lucky, the dragon's breath buff is not good
I recommed mule daniels, if I just drink Mule Daniels I could just sit on the ground as the dragon attacks me and still win

Pwyll

02-25-2005, 02:25 PM

When you put that much effort into learning the intricasies of a system and utilizing that knowledge to meet your goals (DK speed for many of us), you can get upset when the rules suddenly change in a way that negatively affects your progress and that you have no control over. That's what I belive many of us were feeling. We didn't doubt the staff's vision, we just had tunnel vision ourselves.

I wish I'd said that...

Nightwind

02-25-2005, 03:47 PM

here's a random thought.

can we make the HOF forget everybody's fastest DK time?

it's nolonger relivant what it used to be...

Deimos

02-25-2005, 04:01 PM

here's a random thought.

can we make the HOF forget everybody's fastest DK time?

it's nolonger relivant what it used to be...

It's doable, but it's not a fair thing to do.

oracle

02-25-2005, 04:19 PM

maybe an "old HOF" and a "new HOF"?

FullyIPX

02-25-2005, 07:09 PM

.... I refuse to be happy about this mod until I get my 4 day DK.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

First since the mod! (I think) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

IPX

Syrius

02-26-2005, 01:24 AM

I personally like the idea of 2 halls of fame lists, one before and one after the mod.

PS. FullyIPX, good work!!

JCP

02-26-2005, 07:38 AM

I don't think we're going to keep a new HoF for every "significant" change to the game. We should probably have half a dozen HoF's by now.

Wiping the HoF ans starting over? Maybe, but that doesn't seem fair.

Fionnabhair

02-26-2005, 01:25 PM

Deimos

02-26-2005, 05:42 PM

Beginning a new HOF (for DK speed) would probably anger people more than serve a real purpose, but I don't agree that it's unfair. It's a reflection of players' performance at one point in the game, but now that the rules have changed, it really doesn't mean much. I don't know if this is possible retroactively, but what about adding a column that shows on what date the reported DK was attained?

I think that'd be interesting, at least to show what DK you got it. Such as Days: 4; DK 25, with another column. The problem is that we don't have that data stored for past DKs.

Nightwind

02-26-2005, 08:14 PM

then that gives us the perfect excuse to purge the coloum, we needed to remove it, to make way for this 'new' thing

Deimos

02-27-2005, 03:12 AM

then that gives us the perfect excuse to purge the coloum, we needed to remove it, to make way for this 'new' thing

That's unfounded.

Besides, we could just as easily insert a new column and leave it unknown for preexisting records. Or even, "< $DK" ,where $DK is the one they're working on when the new code is installed.

FullyIPX

02-27-2005, 07:09 AM

At first, I was under the mistaken impression that this mod would increase DK time too... I now know that this is not true. There actually is another fairly recent change to the game that has a much greater effect on DK time, if you stop to think about it.... I think I may try for a 3 day DK when I have the time to play a little more in a few weeks.

Fully IPX

Nightwind

02-27-2005, 04:17 PM

i guess I am a bit draconic in my sugestions, but luckally i'm far less draconic in my enforcement and implimentaton...

i've been watching some of the dk times. The average farmcritter increases a bit, but dosen't know it.

pages are happy to be going faster at all...

the rest under 20 seem to be slowed a little, and the most complaints are from there...

i'm just over 20, and seem to be doing well against the delays...

the fact that booger has a 3 day dk shows the high end is not terribly limited by it at all.

forcius

02-27-2005, 04:47 PM

Personally I do not like having to look for it. I like going for the quick kill :twisted:
The fact that there is one dragon and not four is OK by me, even kind of logical, but the fact that you can only search for it in two towns is something I do not like at all. If you have 32 turns left and you can use none to search for the dragon, that is quite frustrating and a bit boring since after level 15 there is nothing more to look for ...

Acemaster

02-27-2005, 05:10 PM

Or so you think.

Booger

02-27-2005, 05:16 PM

the fact that booger has a 3 day dk shows the high end is not terribly limited by it at all.

actually I got that 3 day kill a bit before the change. I've been pretty lucky with the module so far though, and real life has slowed me more recently. 3 day DK is still possible with some luck.

Sir Quady

02-27-2005, 05:30 PM

This probably wont affect me for a while, but i think it is more realistic and will add more of a challenge.

jarek

02-28-2005, 03:33 AM

At first, I was under the mistaken impression that this mod would increase DK time too... I now know that this is not true. There actually is another fairly recent change to the game that has a much greater effect on DK time, if you stop to think about it....

Does this other change you are referring to maybe have something to do with a certain part of the Inn?

Jarek

FullyIPX

02-28-2005, 10:24 AM

nope. 8)

Kadina

03-01-2005, 09:32 AM

I got my first 2 DK's before the change, and another DK afterwards. Personally, it didnt bother me at all to have to search for the green dragon, and in fact I got ambushed and never found her on my own. I can see how more experienced players would be upset though, as they have routines that have been significantly crippled.

As far as affecting DK speed, I would think the donation mod has a greater effect on that than the dragon changes. On a good month, like February was, those extra ten fights per game day really add up in my opinion.

JCP

03-01-2005, 09:37 AM

As far as affecting DK speed, I would think the donation mod has a greater effect on that than the dragon changes. On a good month, like February was, those extra ten fights per game day really add up in my opinion.

And yet no one complained about that... interesting. ;)

Seriously though, I'll be wanting a comment thread about that mod as well - though not for a while as there is a long time period needed to see it in action.

Pwyll

03-01-2005, 11:37 AM

And yet no one complained about that... interesting.

Interesting concept - has any player ever complained that a feature made the game too easy?

Elessa

03-03-2005, 03:13 PM

And yet no one complained about that... interesting.
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