Ads and Donating

[Acemaster]

NOTE- this post was split from the "number of forest fights" thread. The responses stem from when Waugh suggested the idea of gaining more forest fights when you click on a click-thru ad.


We are fairly self-sufficient with donations. That's why the ads were taken away.

[JCP]

We are fairly self-sufficient with donations. That's why the ads were taken away.

Whoah - we're not THAT self-sufficient.

We try to keep thinking of ways to generate income.

[Waugh]

We are fairly self-sufficient with donations. That's why the ads were taken away.

Acemaster, please do look at everything I wrote. I would love healthy feedback and discussion, not just a close-ended "We're fine. Go away." type response.

I made some very good suggestions I thought. I'm throwing out ideas to help the people who spend much of their time devoted to running this place, perhaps make a decent livng doing so! It might spark other ideas, as surely the folks involved haven't thought of *everything*. No offence :wink:

JCP... I'd simply pass through the paycheck mate, but well, the 2 kids already do that :lol:


http://www.mike250.com/images/2kids.jpg

Oh, and yes, my avatar IS me. :lol:

[Acemaster]

I did not intend to make you seem like I didn't want you here, I thought I was merely explaining why we don't have ads.

Your kids are very cute, by the way.

[Pwyll]

Waugh, I don't know if you were around at the time, but Central did used to have ads. There was an option for individual players to turn them off by donating. Eric made the decision to turn them off and try to subsist on donations alone, and I believe it has been a popular decision, judging by the donations being well in excess of operating costs for several months in a row now.

I for one wouldn't like to see the ads come back - that's why I try to donate every month. I think if there were a non-Paypal way to donate there would be even more donations.

There's also the LoGD merchandise - one of these days I've got to get that T-shirt! :)

[Acemaster]

Wouldn't matter today, I now have my trusty Adblock.

[BLOODDRAGON]

Well the thing is with the ads on here when there were it wasnt like "LOOK AT ME IM A GIANT POP UP!" or "BUY BUY BUY NOW NOW NOW!"but its a small casual out of your way thing like " hey this is cool you might like it.

[Nightwind]

intersting that you would admit to trying to cheet respectable website owners out of money ....

if the adds come back, unblock them on here and other places that you think should be alowed to make a living...

and ban to the nth degree, anything that makes a noise... ****ing vontage!

[Waugh]

I did not intend to make you seem like I didn't want you here, I thought I was merely explaining why we don't have ads.

Your kids are very cute, by the way.

Thanks mate for the clarification! :) And about my kids, the little one there turned 3 yesterday. He's a very happy lil' camper right now.

Ok, ads were here, now gone, I personally do not like ads either. But what if clicking through an ad gained you say, 2 turns? Would you re-consider? (Of course, limit 1 clickthrough per day or something)

I do notice that we're well above 100% in the last couple months. That's awesome. What happens if that starts to tank though?

What about my other idea, obtaining turns at a faster rate for delaying logging in? The idea being to encourage less server load, as everyone probably logs in just before turn of day right?

[JCP]

I do notice that we're well above 100% in the last couple months. That's awesome. What happens if that starts to tank though?

What about my other idea, obtaining turns at a faster rate for delaying logging in? The idea being to encourage less server load, as everyone probably logs in just before turn of day right?

Well, that's 100% of current server costs. Everyone still works at a paying job and volunteers what little time is left to help out.

That's not quite "awesome". "Awesome" is 5-10x server costs every month so that MightyE can stop working for "the man" and start working for himself full time.

But not operating in the red is a good thing.

We always evaluate ideas such as different "new day" times for people, but right now server load isn't as big an issue as it was a while ago. The server is handling the current loads pretty well - at least well enough that such a system is less of a priority than the current list of things that are being done.

[White Knight]

intersting that you would admit to trying to cheet respectable website owners out of money ....

if the adds come back, unblock them on here and other places that you think should be alowed to make a living...

and ban to the nth degree, anything that makes a noise... ****ing vontage!

Do ads really make that much of a difference in server costs? I mean, really? Even when I have them unblocked (which is seldom), I never click on them. I don't mind small, unobtrusive, out-of-the-way ads, like a banner at the top of a page, but these sidebars and popups have got to go!

[Nightwind]

block popup adds as a mater of habbit (but alow on sites that have pop up motd, for example..)

[Pwyll]

But what if clicking through an ad gained you say, 2 turns? Would you re-consider? (Of course, limit 1 clickthrough per day or something)

Um... isn't that effectively limiting the amount of revenue generated by the ads? If each clickthrough = money and clickthroughs are limited, then money is also limited. Seems self-defeating.

Of course, the current system of adding turns for all players based on income in excess of basic costs could be applied to ad revenue as well, I suppose...

[Talisman]

block popup adds as a mater of habbit (but alow on sites that have pop up motd, for example..)

The firewall suites (Such as Symantec's) with addblocking block the ads by default. When blocking the add on a site like lotgd.net, there is nothing which appears on your screen to indicate the fact that there is indeed a missing ad...so how would they know to unblock that?

In my case, I never click ads. My browser having to fetch the ad info and image slows the page load. Why would I want to have them activated on select sites? If I want to donate to a site, that's what I'll do...instead of contributing .003 cents by clicking on an ad I don't want to see :wink:

[JCP]

Ok, just so we can put this issue to bed:

Ads on central did not work.

We have a bad model for ads: low unique visitors, extremely high page load per visitor. Compare this to, say, a successful (stress on that word) webcomic - many unique visitors with a low page load per visitor.

We learned the following things when we had ads:

Ads did not pay nearly enough. Like, absurdly not nearly enough.

And we had people pointedly refuse to donate if we ran ads.

We were not only not making money off the ads - we were losing out on potential donors as a result.

We turned to the fundraiser bar, which was previously not used for monthly costs, as a way to indicate how much help we needed. And we instituted a server-wide reward program to show our appreciation and encourage more than the minimum.

Because, let's be honest - there are three possible situations regarding the site's profitability:

1. The site does not earn enough money each month - we have run under this model for most of our existence. This is the "MightyE goes into debt" model and we like to avoid it. We have periodic fundraisers in the hopes of getting a warchest to cover the majority of the time when we operate in the red. This is a high stress situation.

2. The site covers monthly server costs - our situation for the past few months. While we have exceeded costs, helping the warchest, we still do not know the sustainability of the model - it has only been a few months. We will continue to use fundraisers and add new permanent and temporary lodge buys just in case.

3. The site consistantly exceeds enough to cover server costs and MightyE's living expenses. This would let MightyE become a full time coder - imagine 40+ hours a week on the game instead of a mere handful.

So while we are happy that we are operating in the black as far as server costs go, we do have a higher goal in mind.

Remember, when LoGD takes over the world, you're going to want to get in on the ground floor - the front tables in the banquet hall are going to fill up quick.

[Waugh]

Do ads really make that much of a difference in server costs? I mean, really? Even when I have them unblocked (which is seldom), I never click on them. I don't mind small, unobtrusive, out-of-the-way ads, like a banner at the top of a page, but these sidebars and popups have got to go!

Here's the difference White Knight. On any given day and any given website, I cannot stand the advertising as you have mentioned. However, when something directly benefits me, such as gaining a free turn or two from clicking one a day, you bet your <beepy beep beep> I'll be clicking it. :o :lol:

[Pwyll]

3. The site consistantly exceeds enough to cover server costs and MightyE's living expenses.

A stunning thought. My rough guesstimate is that if every single player on Central consistently donated $15 or $20 per month this could be achieved. I do my part, what about the rest of you slackers? :P

[BLOODDRAGON]

Not everyone can afford 15$ a month Pwyll, heck i barely make enough to cover gas and lunch money... thank god my parents pay for my insurence (for now)

[Kadina]

I'm curious if the dollar amount that represents 100% has changed over the few months that the fundraiser bar has been in place.

Just a little CYA.... I'm not complaining at all if it has, as I donate because I feel the game is worth it, I appreciate the efforts of all those involved and I have the means to do so. I've spent many many hours doing php coding for free for a non appreciative audience and I realize it can be draining in more ways than one.

Honestly I'm just curious wether 100% has been a static dollar amount or if its been raised to encourage more donations to reap the rewards.

[FatalOblivion]

Another way that you might consider keeping in the back of your minds is negotiating a long-term sponsorship deal with an company that sells products to the LOTGD audience/users. This would turn your frequent unique visitors model into an advantage.

You have a loyal, regular unique audience that certain companies in the fantasy/science fiction marketspace might be interested in catering too.

This tactic might be more of a possibility in the future when you have a much larger audience - or you might look to partner with a company in a win-win relationship that simultaneously brings you a larger audience.

Regardless, I don't think it had been mentioned yet, so I wanted to get it out there and filed away in your ideas for $$ folder.

Cheers.

[Syrius]

The 100% is an exact dollar ammount. Anything that goes over that amount goes into the War Chest in case of times where the costs are not met. I don't think there would be much benefit in making it rise to try and entice more donations.

Donations were consistently short of meeting server costs until the bar was brought in, by the way.

[Kadina]

I'm aware that donations were below costs prior to the fundraiser bar. I'm also aware that 100% is an exact dollar amount. What I don't know is if that exact dollar amount fluctuates from month to month.

Syrius, are you saying that you know for sure it doesnt change? Or are you speculating?

[Nightwind]

it does not.

Remeber, there where larger insentives that produced an early boost in the previous months... or hath thou forgotten the storm giants already?

[Catscradler]

Please don't consider this an absolute official response. I don't have access to the donation statistics.

As far as I know, the amount hasn't changed in several months. At least not since the donation bar was activated.

Things that might cause the dollar amount asked for to change would be:
-the cost of operating the server changing (ie. upgrades, change of host). This probably isn't happening for the forseeable future.
-the site exceeding its bandwidth allotment for the month (due to malicious attacks, or an increase in user traffic). I don't think this has happened recently.

So, from the conversations with the other staff that I've had, I gather that the dollar amount we're looking for has not changed recently.

I'll see if I can get some administrative confirmation on all of this.

[MightyE]

Actually it's an astute observation, if misinterpreted :-).

The issue stems from my failing to accurately assess the real costs of running the game when I initially placed up the donation bar. I set it at "What are the hosting fees for the game each month." That actually falls short of what the total costs of running the game are. There's other costs, such as advertising costs (yes, I do in fact advertise), PayPal transaction fees (this is actually a pretty sizey chunk, since many donations are $1 or $2, leading the fees to be as much as 1/3 - 1/4 of the income), taxes (all donations to LoGD count as income for me, and fees are deductions -- this actually complicates my taxes pretty extensively, and I've hired an accountant as a result), etc.

There are also forward-looking fees -- things which will cost the game money in the future, for which a sufficient war chest is necessary, and past losses. So it all turns out to be a lot more complex than I thought when I first stuck the donation bar in place. So yes, although the dollar amount that represents 100% has shifted upwards, it's more of a correction than anything else.

I've said it before, but it's been a while. At no point have I ever taken draw on the game's finances. Draw is the accounting term for paying myself from the game's profits. After 3 years of development, the game hasn't actually ever deposited even $1 into my pocket. If the finances shape up sufficiently, I hope to begin taking draw and becoming employed by the game. That day still looks pretty distant. The way I figure it, I can do this when the game consistently profits more than my mortgage each month. We've *peaked* at half of my mortgage, so I'm not particularly holding my breath :-). This, by the way, would mean me taking roughly a 50% pay cut from my current full time job.

[Kadina]

MightyE,
Thank you for taking the time to reply honestly and without implying that my question was out of line. Your explanation is perfectly acceptable and my curiousity has been satisfied. Hopefully some day you will be able to live off the game and I will continue to donate as long as I am still playing and financially able to do so.

Kudos to you and the rest of your team for all of your hard work! :)

[Pwyll]

Ah, the hidden costs of running a business! My band is on the verge of incorporating as an LLC (limited liability corporation), and we're looking at all the complexities inherent in such a move. On the bright side, it would actually become economically sensible to change my guitar strings more often and throw guitar picks into the audience... :D

[Nightwind]

i have half a thought that if you put a link down for "game" and a seperate oen for "author" you'd get some money sent dirrectly to you for 'draw' ...

but i also think therhe would be the risk of it being done accidnetally.. so goodbye idea

[Pwyll]

i have half a thought that if you put a link down for "game" and a seperate oen for "author" you'd get some money sent dirrectly to you for 'draw' ...

Wow, if you think you have accounting headaches now... :shock:

[Waugh]

Actually it's an astute observation, if misinterpreted :-).

The issue stems from my failing to accurately assess the real costs of running the game when I initially placed up the donation bar. I set it at "What are the hosting fees for the game each month." That actually falls short of what the total costs of running the game are. There's other costs, such as advertising costs (yes, I do in fact advertise), PayPal transaction fees (this is actually a pretty sizey chunk, since many donations are $1 or $2, leading the fees to be as much as 1/3 - 1/4 of the income), taxes (all donations to LoGD count as income for me, and fees are deductions -- this actually complicates my taxes pretty extensively, and I've hired an accountant as a result), etc.

There are also forward-looking fees -- things which will cost the game money in the future, for which a sufficient war chest is necessary, and past losses. So it all turns out to be a lot more complex than I thought when I first stuck the donation bar in place. So yes, although the dollar amount that represents 100% has shifted upwards, it's more of a correction than anything else.

I've said it before, but it's been a while. At no point have I ever taken draw on the game's finances. Draw is the accounting term for paying myself from the game's profits. After 3 years of development, the game hasn't actually ever deposited even $1 into my pocket. If the finances shape up sufficiently, I hope to begin taking draw and becoming employed by the game. That day still looks pretty distant. The way I figure it, I can do this when the game consistently profits more than my mortgage each month. We've *peaked* at half of my mortgage, so I'm not particularly holding my breath :-). This, by the way, would mean me taking roughly a 50% pay cut from my current full time job.

Sorry for the delay, I started this forum and I've been travelling quite a bit. MightyE, this was a most thoughtful and honest response. I thank you.

[Decius]

Does your accountant consider that since you are not providing a good or service to anyone for the monies recieved, they are not earned income, for which you are responsible for taxes, but gifts, for which the donor is required to pay taxes if they exceed an absurd threshold (Somewhere in the tens of thousands of dollars, I belive). I am not an accountant, nor a lawer, noor do I think in exactly the same jusidiction, but I think the model might hold.

If it doesn't, consider starting a non-profit corporation to admister the community, which would have the added benefit of making donations tax-deductible. This may require MORE money go to an accountant, however, due to added complexity.

[SaucyWench]

Even when I have them unblocked (which is seldom), I never click on them.
However, when something directly benefits me, such as gaining a free turn or two from clicking one a day, you bet your <beepy beep beep> I'll be clicking it. :o :lol:

And I'll bet that neither of you EVER buy anything from an ad you click on. It's not a criticism, just an observation, because I am the same. BloodDragon commented that he hasn't the money to support the site each month, and he is also typical of most teenagers playing on Central.

What you have, essentially, is 6,000 players who neither WANT anything the banners advertise nor have the MONEY for anything the banners advertise. Therefore, the advertisers are willing to pay exactly ZERO for useless clicks.

MightyE actually signed LoGD up for one company that said it would pay 0.1c per click, and they knocked us back because they had no advertisers willing to use a game site! Game sites are well recognised as being pathetic in terms of "click-thru" rate (the number of people who spontaneously click a banner without a reward). Those kind of sites prohibit us ever asking or rewarding you for a click.

The other type, who allow us to reward for each click, pay about 1/100th as much because nearly all the visitors are totally uninterested in what they're selling. I kid you not that it can take 5,000 clicks to get the first DOLLAR. If you're thinking, "Wow, that's ridiculous" then stop and have a guess how many banners you've ever seen on Yahoo/MSN/Hotmail, how many you EVER clicked on and how many you EVER bought from... (can I hear a resounding call of Zero?).

We see so much advertising that our brains switch it off. It doesn't matter how amazing/different/new the product is and how great the banner is, we're conditioned to thinking we can find something for free just like it, so we tune out.

[Hapa Angel]

Good points about advertising, Saucy. I have my personal blog signed up for Google Adsense, and I've made a grand total of less than ten cents thus far. :roll: Advertisers are not paying anywhere near a level needed to cover costs to run a site this size. When private donations of even $1 or $2 are making more than advertising..... well, that says something.

I think Decius also had a good idea, but I don't know how well that would actually work. I could ask my dad (who knows his tax laws, being employed in that field) about it, but I think the way our tax laws are, it would be hard to prove that the money indeed falls under gift status. Look at the situation. A game site is being run, and a lot of people are giving their money to the creator... does that sound like something the IRS would file under "gift money" or "nonprofit" status? It might look too fishy and would get MightyE audited rather than giving him a tax break. :?

[Nightwind]

i'm an odd one, i've clicked through, and purchased, a few times.

most reciently, was starscape, and it was worth it

[Waugh]

Those are good points Saucy, but they *ARE* paying off. In my line of work of Economics, you'll be surprized at how effective advertising is.

For example: Once upon a time the introduction of credit cards outraged the general public. During the first decade, yes decade, credit card drops produced very little profit and a lot of chaos. Then during the 70's automation coupled advertising and with growing ease over the use of and convenience of credit cards, saw the plastic card finally accepted and welcomed in 1978. It was 12 years after plastic credit cards were first offered. 12 years! And the same applies with all other forms of television advertising and web advertising.

I encourage readers to research the keywords: The Chicago Debacle.

Guess who's the most targeted audience? Kids! I am constantly amazed at how much my kids retain. They know all the slogans, jingles, ever tried shopping with a child? Education world (http://www.educationworld.com/a_lesson/lesson/lesson158.shtml) writes that in 1995 children spent about $73 billion per year of their own money and influenced the spending of $196 billion of their parents' money. And now online advertisers are targeting the same audience, and at times in a very bad, very negative, but influencial way.

Still don't believe advertising changes consumer habits? Tell me then, the rest of each of these lines:

______ meanz Heinz - Heinz, 1967
Don't leave home without ______ - American Express, 1975
I am stuck on Band-Aid, and Band-Aid's ______ - Band Aids
The ultimate driving ______ - BMW, 1975
M&Ms melt in your mouth, not in your ______ - M&M's, 1954
Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a ______ - McDonalds, 1992
Have a Coke and a ______ - Coke, 1979
Have a ______. Have a Kit-Kat - Kit Kat, 1957
Just do ______ - Nike, 1988

You start to get the idea. Why do you think Advertising hasn't just gone away? It works. It may not get the target the first time around, but the way it works is to try and ignite something within you, perhaps at a later date, to buy their good or service. While you may not buy whatever you clicked on, the chance of you recalling a product that was advertised is much greater when it is flooded at you.

You may say you have turned off advertising, but you really haven't. I was amazed when studying the economic effects of advertising, I really was.

Here's an interesting article I read:
http://www.clickz.com/experts/archives/b2b_mkt/b2b_strat/article.php/811301

I am not an Advertising fan. Not at all. I am starting to see the targeted aspect of advertising, much like the Google targeted ads, and at times these appeal to me. And at times that annoying banner at the top of Yahoo appeals to me. Perhaps it is the new release of Half Life 2, or a web company offereing $5.99 monthly hosting. While I may not buy them now, I look at them, and quite possibly later on consider it.

Economics, consumer buying habits, etc. is my field of work. I just want to present an educated argument on the topic of advertising and why it works, and why it isn't going away anytime soon. I don't mean to preach, but this is a subject that I know a thing or two about :D

[Elessa]

personally, i will never intentionally click a banner ad on any webpage. as a network admin, i hath seen far too many computers that downloaded malware/spyware on them from doing so.

the frustration of cleaning the systems afterwards negates any good that could potentially be gained from clicking on one. the ad may look innocuous and safe for a product with a known name or service, but is it really?

twice, users i had to assist in getting their computers working again told me the site they were on when they decided to click on the banner ad before finding themselves with frozen, nonfunctioning computers. they were shocked. the sites they were on are very reputable. the banner ads they chose to click on were also for "reputable" products, however, the end result was malicious.

sorry, not worth the risk.

[Waugh]

Then you will know very well that it needs much less than clicking a banner ad to potentially end up in the place you are... :lol:

[Nightwind]

the frustration of cleaning the systems afterwards negates any good that could potentially be gained from clicking on one. the ad may look innocuous and safe for a product with a known name or service, but is it really?
sorry, not worth the risk.

Very few sits do i trust to keep adds that behave, the site i clicked through and bought with, is one of the few. That one.. check my clan tag... Illiad is very careful about who h elets advertise, i don't think he usues a reseller at all...
unfortunatly, education is the exception, not the rule

[Fionnabhair]

Those are good points Saucy, but they *ARE* paying off. In my line of work of Economics, you'll be surprized at how effective advertising is.

Interesting stuff about the psychology of ads - I rarely consciously watch commercials on tv (I'm usually doing other things while I'm watching tv and barely pay attention during the program, much less during the commercial breaks), but I am aware of slogans, jingles, certain images, etc.

Your points that advertising is effective are valid, but I don't think that's the reason Saucy said the Central server doesn't view it as worthwhile. The banner and click-through method of advertising apparently hasn't begun to bear enough fruit for the advertising companies behind it to pay game sites in particular enough for the placement of the ads to be beneficial. What I got from Saucy's post is that Central server doesn't use ad banners because the advertising companies don't believe their banners influence users of game sites, not because the admins don't believe advertising works.

[JCP]

Whether or not "advertising works to influence consumers" is irrelevant.

The simple fact of the matter is that "advertising does not work to support the site".

Please see my post on the first page of this thread which outlines that advertising actually has a negative impact on our revenue, since people are less willing to donate if we accept advertising.

[SaucyWench]

Sure, Waugh, but the internet is different as a medium and it past saturation point =)

I wish I could find a link, but Coca-Cola once noticed their revenue was dropping, and increased their advertising in all media, only to find their revenue dropped *further*. After conducting a study they found that oversaturation was the problem. People were certainly seeing the brand and logos and jingles, but were seeing them so often that the advertising clouded seeing other things, and people were unconsciously filtering them. They removed a good chunk of their advertising and the sales crept up again. I think that's what the internet has seen. If you think about the ads you see the most on the net, they are probably dating, insurance and music sites. But we don't see one or two of each type, we see hundreds, so remembering them is far less likely - personally, I totally ignore those ads.

[Waugh]

Whether or not "advertising works to influence consumers" is irrelevant.

The simple fact of the matter is that "advertising does not work to support the site".

Right, I merely went off on a tangent on purpose to describe how general advertising works and why. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your views on adding advertising to the site. I am a donator myself and will be happy to keep donating.

Again, just showing, or proving, how inherantly we can't avoid noticing advertising.

Sure, Waugh, but the internet is different as a medium and it past saturation point =)

I wish I could find a link, but Coca-Cola once noticed their revenue was dropping, and increased their advertising in all media, only to find their revenue dropped *further*. After conducting a study they found that oversaturation was the problem. People were certainly seeing the brand and logos and jingles, but were seeing them so often that the advertising clouded seeing other things, and people were unconsciously filtering them. They removed a good chunk of their advertising and the sales crept up again. I think that's what the internet has seen. If you think about the ads you see the most on the net, they are probably dating, insurance and music sites. But we don't see one or two of each type, we see hundreds, so remembering them is far less likely - personally, I totally ignore those ads.

If you ever find the link, please do send it to me!

[Syrius]

*idly wonders if Waugh works in advertising*

[Pwyll]

On a related tangent, I see that donations are down this month. I don't know if that's due to silent resentment of the HP changes or if June is always slow...

[Tyrall]

The last couple of months had very big incentives to donating; there was the Storm Giant, and then the Black Unicorn.
There's no such (direct) reward this month, so it's somewhat understandable there would not be the same sort of donation frenzy.

However, the bar is at 79%, and it's 73% of the way through the month, so I suspect this month will at least break even. :)

I personally won't be donating until Monday, as I don't get paid until Friday (I also already have a bunch of donation points from bug/typo reporting this month) :)

[Acemaster]

*idly wonders if Waugh works in advertising*

I believe he mentioned that he did.

[Syrius]

In my line of work of Economics, you'll be surprized at how effective advertising is.


*is quite ignorant as to what economics work actually is.*

:oops:

[madmalkav]

If you don't want to put advertises on the game, put them here on the forum. My experience with ads in a phpBB forum is quite good, and I'm getting some good money monthly.

[Furion]

If they would pay (the increased prices the admins are looking for) for forum ads, that would be kind of funny. Same ignoring audience (myself included), and more money.

I was trying to think of a way to make money, and besides a bake sale and car wash, couldn't come up with anything. :D

But I did think of a way to SAVE money. I don't know if this still holds true, but MightyE wrote in his blog once upon a time that he purchases a few ads for his game. I was thinking, instead of ads, it might be better to affiliate with some respected sites for free. That way, LOGD is appealing to its target audience (online gamers), while forming partnerships with other sites, and saving money.

Just a thought.